I love your post on Carrie. I immensely enjoyed the book. What kept me reading and realizing why it was a breakthrough for Stephen King is that it was unputdownable. The news stories teased us into quickly reading to the end, which we knew would be horrific and overly dramatic.
Thank you so much for this insightful and thoughtful piece. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your writing and your thoughts. I came upon the book club too late to be able to read the book in a day (certainly not with a toddler hanging around), but boy did reading this make me want to pick up the book again.
I find what I don’t like about King in his later books (say under the dome) is that everything feels sliced apart, one scene to the next, one theme to the next, action, action, things don’t click together and thematically are sometimes a bit incongruous which is why I think people are dissatisfied with the endings (I was very disappointed by the ending of the outsider, too neat for something that felt actually a bit messy unknown, literally unclear). Carrie is incredible for how it draws on themes of womanhood that are with us all, creates an entire world that feels real, elements of the story creating what I think is really a tapestry, a wholly interconnected story from start to finish (the bookending of blood, you name it). I am very excited to join the club for the next book especially now that I’ll have more time. You seriously rock for putting this together and taking the time to write up what you did—thank you!
Hello, Shaina, for shorter pieces, I record directly into the Substack audio but for longer stuff, I use Alitu.com. It's shockingly easy to use. You get great sound from it.
Thank you so much for the tip! I just went for it, and after 25 minutes of stream of consciousness, I decided to leave it as-is and try for better next time.
There are many reasons this was a hard book to revisit (last time I read it was quite a few years ago).
My mom was mentally and emotionally abusive to me (she passed in January), and my junior high school years was a mix of "Mean Girls" and "Welcome to the Dollhouse".
When you read Carrie, does it feel similar to your experiences? I have a decent amount of my own religious trauma, and this book definitely brings those real life experiences up for me. (They were nothing compared to Margaret White, but they've shaped my life in some damaging ways).
Similar in the way my mom treated me, she did a lot of comparing me to others in form of, why can't I do that. And just the overall teasing from classmates, although in my experience, 12 and 13 yr old girls are little shits period full stop.
Yup. Middle school was a much harder time for me. By the time I reached high school I had a solid group of misfit friends. It made it much easier. King's books are deeply personal to me. I think that's the reason his writing has always worked so well. He is able to present some of the hardest parts of life in his stories.
- in the beginning I felt deeply for her pain of living with an extremely toxic and dangerous parent. I don’t know if I can call that “liking” Carrie, maybe just relating to her?
-In the end when she exacted her revenge... I did feel that she was carrying out justice. It felt, again, a deeply uncomfortable and sad form of justice (especially the innocent teachers and students who became her victims). However, as a person who watches/reads so much True Crime and is always so interested in the “why” behind the most heinous crimes or even just the most toxic adults in my own life... I will never view Carrie as the villain. The incident with the “Devil’s Slut Next Door” sealed it for me - Carrie never stood a chance with Margaret as her only parent and role model.
2) The Motives of Sue Snell and boyfriend Tommy:
- On first reading (this was my 3rd) I did believe Sue had good motives. As a grown woman with a teenager nearly Sue’s age.... I think Sue perhaps believes her motives are pure. More likely, in my opinion, they are a way for her to maintain her good image after joining in. To maintain her popularity and the perfect future she sees with Tommy and her unborn child with him.
- I think Tommy went to the prom with Carrie to calm Sue’s guilt, mostly. Possibly to set an example for the other “popular kids”. As an always popular handsome young man, he may have been blinded by that privilege and truly believe his motives were pure. And when they were at the prom together, I read his treatment of and compliments to her as genuine. Did he truly care for Carrie and want to help her? That I’m not sure of. I feel he imagined a wonderful night for Poor Carrie so that he could go on with his life with Sue.
3) I didn’t like the book, I LOVED it! The religious trauma, the toxic and dangerous mother, all that spoke to me personally. And then I loved (of course, SK is a wordsmith of the highest order) the way the book went from current to past to future; referencing news articles of the rock falling (dirty pillows devils slut) incident, readings about telekinesis, the aftermath of the bloody prom... how Billy and Christine went out in the end... i want to read it all over again 😂 but I’m starting Salem’s Lot today!
That’s true. I didn’t mean to imply that it was her only opportunity, more like if the story was about her mother’s redemption, it would have been a perfect place for the Big Moment of Realization. Unfortunately, it wasn’t meant to be. I guess the same could be said about any of the other characters - you’re right, they all played a role in Carrie’s downfall, and even Sue Snell’s repentance didn’t help her out unscathed.
Absolutely. It feels like it was the last chance is that scene before prom. And from her mother-it’s got to hurt worse than what anyone else did to her.
That moment when Carrie’s mother says, “I can see your dirtypillows”, my heart broke for both of them. The girl, so mistreated and abused that she would go on to destroy everyone and everything she could reach. And her mother, so locked in her zeal for righteousness that she wasn’t willing to (or perhaps able to) see her daughter, all grown up and about to take a giant leap into a very uncomfortable situation. Instead of supporting her - which might have turned the whole book around in that moment - she tries to shame her. Parental shame is a powerful, terrible thing, and her mother wields it like a scythe.
There were so many opportunities for her not to do what she did. I think that's the tension and emotional investment of the story. You see how many things could have gone right, pulled Carrie out of the religious hell she grew up in. Instead, each decision by every character in the book seals her fate.
Shaina, regarding Carrie’s rapid transition from ugly duckling to the girl who enchanted her date, I think you need to evaluate how plausible that scene is not from the standpoint of ‘that transition happened too quickly’, but rather from how a boy talks to his date on prom night. If you look at it that way, you’ll see that it’s entirely possible that her date would have said those things to her. Whether those words were entirely sincere on his part or not is open to debate, but a guy is able to overlook stuff if he has hopes for later that night.
Well said, John! Also... did anyone consider that her newfound control over her powers could have drastically altered the way others viewed her? I hadn’t until now.. just curious :)
Ummmm I did NOT think of that! But that may be exactly what’s happening. As her power grows, we know she’s kind of invading peoples thoughts. (Like when the whole town hears Carrie, Carrie, Carrie). That makes a lot of sense to me.
Excellent discussion and summary, Shaina. Great job with the podcast, your voice and style was perfect and I thoroughly enjoyed listening to this just now.
I don't have the religious angle myself (brought up without religion and remain so), but those points all still resonated for me.
I'm generally not one for biographies, but I'm just fascinated at the launch of King's career and how this story started it for him. The origin story is just so amazing. I've never read On Writing (! I might actually pick it up today!) but the foreword in Carrie (at least the version I have) also provides an excellent summary of how his career started.
I’m so glad to hear it! The podcast portion is something I’ve been wanting to add for some time, but I don’t know how to use audio software very well beyond the basics.
I think what’s been most interesting about the conversation around this book is how personal it is for people. I think King is able to touch those deep places in a lot of his stories, and from the sounds of it, it’s not something he’s set out to do. It just shines through in his writing.
Salem’s Lot will be a much less heavy read. Vampires and all that 😂
Idk man, Salem’s Lot will be a 2nd read for me (I was maybe 20/21 when I read it?) and I remember it creeping me the fffffff out 😂 but I can’t wait to read again 15 years later!
Also wanted to add that my 13 yo daughter has been going through some bulling at school and as soon as I finished I thought, she can handle this. So I gave it to her to read and she loved it! The coming of age story plays such a visceral part in this. I think it helped my daughter in quite a cathertic way!
Yes! This is always my argument for not censoring books. There are plenty of kids experiencing the exact things written in this story. Not letting them read it for whatever reason doesn't help them. It hurts.
Just wanted to say I enjoyed the audio of this too, I wasn't sure at first if you were just narrating the post but then realised it was extra thoughts from you. Always good to hear a voice, it adds a three dimensionality for the readers/listeners
Hey! Thanks for hosting. First time for me with this book and I havent seen the films either and yet I knew the story. I flew through the reading of it and it reiterates my thoughts that I love King's earlier stuff the most.
What I admired was that with that first scene, and me roughly knowing the story, I was still compelled to read it all and I lapped it up tbh. There's something about the pace of it that just does not let up. I did feel like elements of it hadn't aged well, the casual racism etc
King gets away with breaking a few "rules" in this; there is a bit of headhopping going on, for example. But because of the stakes and the characters you end up not caring.
I felt the same way. I read Carrie for the first time last year, and although I knew the story, I was compelled by the prose. I think King's writings on race and sex both aged poorly. It's not surprising (as in he was raised in the 50's), but even some more recent works have paragraphs where I just think, "Why would you write it this way?!"
But the story pulls you in. I couldn't look away, which is a necessary feeling with a book like that. The scenes of abuse and hazing were very difficult to read. But you want to know what happens.
Shaina, I’m not sure I agree. King isn’t advocating for the views that modern readers would consider objectionable so much as spotlighting how society felt about different issues at that time. Some of the stuff he’s written about racial issues would not only be offensive, but shockingly so to sensitive readers, but even at his worst he still provides an accurate portrayal of how people thought and acted during the times in which those stories take place. I think that’s why he gets a pass.
I think we're saying the same thing, but you're saying it better. I don't think King is advocating for those views. I think the way he wrote them has aged poorly. Does that make sense? I'm thinking of particularly cringy paragraphs that probably passed without issue in the past (because they were closer to the way characters talk or think) that just doesn't make sense to modern readers.
Even in a recent book of his, Mr. Mercedes, he still wrote some dialogue from a young Black character that included jokes like "yes massah."No one talks like this anymore. It reads wrong. That's what I mean when I say I wonder why he wrote certain paragraphs the way he did. I'm sure we'll encounter some of them as we go, and the point I'm making will become clearer. I don't think it's the way King would talk. It's just not great writing in my opinion. A lot of racism is more covert than that. But I chalk it up to him being older, and having been more exposed to conversations that probably were like that.
You don’t think a precocious young man who was sarcastic and deliberately trying to provoke people would say that? I could see it happening but I do admit that it’s unlikely. But again, I might be proving your point because I am older. I remember when Roots aired on TV and everyone was saying that because of the show. It could be a lingering effect from how powerful that miniseries was. I would bet money that’s where King picked it up as well.
I think I’d agree with that as well. That it’s not so much about the times he grew up in, but more presenting an accurate portrayal of those times. Like the movie Django? Maybe? 😂
Susan, many of King’s books (most of them actually) are written in omniscient POV. That’s how he gets away with the head hopping. As an omniscient narrator he is able to know and disclose everything about all of the characters. He zooms in to where it has an almost first person feel, but then, pulls back, and moves on to the next POV character. These comments are speaking about King’s work generally. I’d have to double check Carrie (I read it years ago and still need to complete it for this club), but I think he does that here as well… if I remember right.
Hey, yeah I get that. I think he does it in the same sentence/paragraph a couple of times in this rather than starting a new para or section. So the clarity wasn't there. (For me) It took me out of the work for a moment. But as I said, it all works!
Shaina, I have become acquainted with a variety of your writing over the last few months and I have come to admire your talent, both artistically and intellectually. That brings me back to your review / analysis of Carrie, which I had previously avoided simply out of residual memory of what were, I think now, some pretty awful trailers from the movie's original release. I have started circling back to Kindling and some of my other favorite sites to see what I may have missed from earlier posts before I began subscribing. The Carrie post was the first that I noticed and decided to read. I believe you have me convinced to give the book a shot! I know I responded to a similar post about 'Salem's Lot with basically not only No, but Hell No. But there are threads that you laid out for Carrie that I think may interest me now. The only thing that I noted as a concern is the use, as a plot device, of the brutality to the pigs. Anyway, to bring this ramble to a close, thanks for the stimulating and informative writing. May your Muse be always kind to you!
I love your post on Carrie. I immensely enjoyed the book. What kept me reading and realizing why it was a breakthrough for Stephen King is that it was unputdownable. The news stories teased us into quickly reading to the end, which we knew would be horrific and overly dramatic.
Agreed. I think it’s perfectly executed. I couldn’t put it down, and those opening scenes are so strange and intriguing
Thank you so much for this insightful and thoughtful piece. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your writing and your thoughts. I came upon the book club too late to be able to read the book in a day (certainly not with a toddler hanging around), but boy did reading this make me want to pick up the book again.
I find what I don’t like about King in his later books (say under the dome) is that everything feels sliced apart, one scene to the next, one theme to the next, action, action, things don’t click together and thematically are sometimes a bit incongruous which is why I think people are dissatisfied with the endings (I was very disappointed by the ending of the outsider, too neat for something that felt actually a bit messy unknown, literally unclear). Carrie is incredible for how it draws on themes of womanhood that are with us all, creates an entire world that feels real, elements of the story creating what I think is really a tapestry, a wholly interconnected story from start to finish (the bookending of blood, you name it). I am very excited to join the club for the next book especially now that I’ll have more time. You seriously rock for putting this together and taking the time to write up what you did—thank you!
Hello, Shaina, for shorter pieces, I record directly into the Substack audio but for longer stuff, I use Alitu.com. It's shockingly easy to use. You get great sound from it.
Thank you so much for the tip! I just went for it, and after 25 minutes of stream of consciousness, I decided to leave it as-is and try for better next time.
I use Audacity, the Substack recorder has never worked for me.
There are many reasons this was a hard book to revisit (last time I read it was quite a few years ago).
My mom was mentally and emotionally abusive to me (she passed in January), and my junior high school years was a mix of "Mean Girls" and "Welcome to the Dollhouse".
I'm so sorry Kim.
When you read Carrie, does it feel similar to your experiences? I have a decent amount of my own religious trauma, and this book definitely brings those real life experiences up for me. (They were nothing compared to Margaret White, but they've shaped my life in some damaging ways).
Similar in the way my mom treated me, she did a lot of comparing me to others in form of, why can't I do that. And just the overall teasing from classmates, although in my experience, 12 and 13 yr old girls are little shits period full stop.
Yup. Middle school was a much harder time for me. By the time I reached high school I had a solid group of misfit friends. It made it much easier. King's books are deeply personal to me. I think that's the reason his writing has always worked so well. He is able to present some of the hardest parts of life in his stories.
Agreed re:middle school girls 🤣
1) How did I feel about Carrie?
- in the beginning I felt deeply for her pain of living with an extremely toxic and dangerous parent. I don’t know if I can call that “liking” Carrie, maybe just relating to her?
-In the end when she exacted her revenge... I did feel that she was carrying out justice. It felt, again, a deeply uncomfortable and sad form of justice (especially the innocent teachers and students who became her victims). However, as a person who watches/reads so much True Crime and is always so interested in the “why” behind the most heinous crimes or even just the most toxic adults in my own life... I will never view Carrie as the villain. The incident with the “Devil’s Slut Next Door” sealed it for me - Carrie never stood a chance with Margaret as her only parent and role model.
2) The Motives of Sue Snell and boyfriend Tommy:
- On first reading (this was my 3rd) I did believe Sue had good motives. As a grown woman with a teenager nearly Sue’s age.... I think Sue perhaps believes her motives are pure. More likely, in my opinion, they are a way for her to maintain her good image after joining in. To maintain her popularity and the perfect future she sees with Tommy and her unborn child with him.
- I think Tommy went to the prom with Carrie to calm Sue’s guilt, mostly. Possibly to set an example for the other “popular kids”. As an always popular handsome young man, he may have been blinded by that privilege and truly believe his motives were pure. And when they were at the prom together, I read his treatment of and compliments to her as genuine. Did he truly care for Carrie and want to help her? That I’m not sure of. I feel he imagined a wonderful night for Poor Carrie so that he could go on with his life with Sue.
3) I didn’t like the book, I LOVED it! The religious trauma, the toxic and dangerous mother, all that spoke to me personally. And then I loved (of course, SK is a wordsmith of the highest order) the way the book went from current to past to future; referencing news articles of the rock falling (dirty pillows devils slut) incident, readings about telekinesis, the aftermath of the bloody prom... how Billy and Christine went out in the end... i want to read it all over again 😂 but I’m starting Salem’s Lot today!
That’s true. I didn’t mean to imply that it was her only opportunity, more like if the story was about her mother’s redemption, it would have been a perfect place for the Big Moment of Realization. Unfortunately, it wasn’t meant to be. I guess the same could be said about any of the other characters - you’re right, they all played a role in Carrie’s downfall, and even Sue Snell’s repentance didn’t help her out unscathed.
Absolutely. It feels like it was the last chance is that scene before prom. And from her mother-it’s got to hurt worse than what anyone else did to her.
That moment when Carrie’s mother says, “I can see your dirtypillows”, my heart broke for both of them. The girl, so mistreated and abused that she would go on to destroy everyone and everything she could reach. And her mother, so locked in her zeal for righteousness that she wasn’t willing to (or perhaps able to) see her daughter, all grown up and about to take a giant leap into a very uncomfortable situation. Instead of supporting her - which might have turned the whole book around in that moment - she tries to shame her. Parental shame is a powerful, terrible thing, and her mother wields it like a scythe.
There were so many opportunities for her not to do what she did. I think that's the tension and emotional investment of the story. You see how many things could have gone right, pulled Carrie out of the religious hell she grew up in. Instead, each decision by every character in the book seals her fate.
Shaina, regarding Carrie’s rapid transition from ugly duckling to the girl who enchanted her date, I think you need to evaluate how plausible that scene is not from the standpoint of ‘that transition happened too quickly’, but rather from how a boy talks to his date on prom night. If you look at it that way, you’ll see that it’s entirely possible that her date would have said those things to her. Whether those words were entirely sincere on his part or not is open to debate, but a guy is able to overlook stuff if he has hopes for later that night.
Haha! Well that is probably true, and I honestly didn't consider the fact that he might be lying!
Well said, John! Also... did anyone consider that her newfound control over her powers could have drastically altered the way others viewed her? I hadn’t until now.. just curious :)
Ummmm I did NOT think of that! But that may be exactly what’s happening. As her power grows, we know she’s kind of invading peoples thoughts. (Like when the whole town hears Carrie, Carrie, Carrie). That makes a lot of sense to me.
Excellent discussion and summary, Shaina. Great job with the podcast, your voice and style was perfect and I thoroughly enjoyed listening to this just now.
I don't have the religious angle myself (brought up without religion and remain so), but those points all still resonated for me.
I'm generally not one for biographies, but I'm just fascinated at the launch of King's career and how this story started it for him. The origin story is just so amazing. I've never read On Writing (! I might actually pick it up today!) but the foreword in Carrie (at least the version I have) also provides an excellent summary of how his career started.
Really looking forward to Salem's Lot next.
I’m so glad to hear it! The podcast portion is something I’ve been wanting to add for some time, but I don’t know how to use audio software very well beyond the basics.
I think what’s been most interesting about the conversation around this book is how personal it is for people. I think King is able to touch those deep places in a lot of his stories, and from the sounds of it, it’s not something he’s set out to do. It just shines through in his writing.
Salem’s Lot will be a much less heavy read. Vampires and all that 😂
Idk man, Salem’s Lot will be a 2nd read for me (I was maybe 20/21 when I read it?) and I remember it creeping me the fffffff out 😂 but I can’t wait to read again 15 years later!
Also wanted to add that my 13 yo daughter has been going through some bulling at school and as soon as I finished I thought, she can handle this. So I gave it to her to read and she loved it! The coming of age story plays such a visceral part in this. I think it helped my daughter in quite a cathertic way!
Yes! This is always my argument for not censoring books. There are plenty of kids experiencing the exact things written in this story. Not letting them read it for whatever reason doesn't help them. It hurts.
I'm sorry to hear that regardless.
Thanks, hopefully it's been sorted.
Just wanted to say I enjoyed the audio of this too, I wasn't sure at first if you were just narrating the post but then realised it was extra thoughts from you. Always good to hear a voice, it adds a three dimensionality for the readers/listeners
You inspired me!
🥰
Hey! Thanks for hosting. First time for me with this book and I havent seen the films either and yet I knew the story. I flew through the reading of it and it reiterates my thoughts that I love King's earlier stuff the most.
What I admired was that with that first scene, and me roughly knowing the story, I was still compelled to read it all and I lapped it up tbh. There's something about the pace of it that just does not let up. I did feel like elements of it hadn't aged well, the casual racism etc
King gets away with breaking a few "rules" in this; there is a bit of headhopping going on, for example. But because of the stakes and the characters you end up not caring.
I felt the same way. I read Carrie for the first time last year, and although I knew the story, I was compelled by the prose. I think King's writings on race and sex both aged poorly. It's not surprising (as in he was raised in the 50's), but even some more recent works have paragraphs where I just think, "Why would you write it this way?!"
But the story pulls you in. I couldn't look away, which is a necessary feeling with a book like that. The scenes of abuse and hazing were very difficult to read. But you want to know what happens.
Shaina, I’m not sure I agree. King isn’t advocating for the views that modern readers would consider objectionable so much as spotlighting how society felt about different issues at that time. Some of the stuff he’s written about racial issues would not only be offensive, but shockingly so to sensitive readers, but even at his worst he still provides an accurate portrayal of how people thought and acted during the times in which those stories take place. I think that’s why he gets a pass.
First of all, I'm so happy to have some debate!
I think we're saying the same thing, but you're saying it better. I don't think King is advocating for those views. I think the way he wrote them has aged poorly. Does that make sense? I'm thinking of particularly cringy paragraphs that probably passed without issue in the past (because they were closer to the way characters talk or think) that just doesn't make sense to modern readers.
Even in a recent book of his, Mr. Mercedes, he still wrote some dialogue from a young Black character that included jokes like "yes massah."No one talks like this anymore. It reads wrong. That's what I mean when I say I wonder why he wrote certain paragraphs the way he did. I'm sure we'll encounter some of them as we go, and the point I'm making will become clearer. I don't think it's the way King would talk. It's just not great writing in my opinion. A lot of racism is more covert than that. But I chalk it up to him being older, and having been more exposed to conversations that probably were like that.
You don’t think a precocious young man who was sarcastic and deliberately trying to provoke people would say that? I could see it happening but I do admit that it’s unlikely. But again, I might be proving your point because I am older. I remember when Roots aired on TV and everyone was saying that because of the show. It could be a lingering effect from how powerful that miniseries was. I would bet money that’s where King picked it up as well.
Although, if you go back even before my birth you have comedians like Al Jolson who said it all the time. I’d probably lose my bet.
I think I’d agree with that as well. That it’s not so much about the times he grew up in, but more presenting an accurate portrayal of those times. Like the movie Django? Maybe? 😂
Django is a good example.
💯 agree. Those elements of "of that time" and I suppose it depends on who that character is that might have those views also.
Yes, there are times when the views are of the character, and that’s an important distinction.
Susan, many of King’s books (most of them actually) are written in omniscient POV. That’s how he gets away with the head hopping. As an omniscient narrator he is able to know and disclose everything about all of the characters. He zooms in to where it has an almost first person feel, but then, pulls back, and moves on to the next POV character. These comments are speaking about King’s work generally. I’d have to double check Carrie (I read it years ago and still need to complete it for this club), but I think he does that here as well… if I remember right.
Hey, yeah I get that. I think he does it in the same sentence/paragraph a couple of times in this rather than starting a new para or section. So the clarity wasn't there. (For me) It took me out of the work for a moment. But as I said, it all works!
My apologies. If it’s happening as you say then, yes, you are right. That’s head hopping.
P.S. I love hearing your voice, my sweet friend 💖
Shaina, I have become acquainted with a variety of your writing over the last few months and I have come to admire your talent, both artistically and intellectually. That brings me back to your review / analysis of Carrie, which I had previously avoided simply out of residual memory of what were, I think now, some pretty awful trailers from the movie's original release. I have started circling back to Kindling and some of my other favorite sites to see what I may have missed from earlier posts before I began subscribing. The Carrie post was the first that I noticed and decided to read. I believe you have me convinced to give the book a shot! I know I responded to a similar post about 'Salem's Lot with basically not only No, but Hell No. But there are threads that you laid out for Carrie that I think may interest me now. The only thing that I noted as a concern is the use, as a plot device, of the brutality to the pigs. Anyway, to bring this ramble to a close, thanks for the stimulating and informative writing. May your Muse be always kind to you!