I've been wondering how much of the concept of "safe literature" that I've subconsciously accepted and has made its way into my work. As a result, as I work on new stories, I'm consciously looking for places to push boundaries.
I don't try to disturb peoples' sensitive natures, but I can't write a story if I have to restrict myself to the norms and principles of today's ethics and morals. It just doesn't sit right with me. I write stories about the past and I don't hold back. I'm a white man who has lived a 'Tom Sawyer' life, as far as my wife is concerned. (Hers? Not so great.) I had no adversity of any sort. I grew up innocent and naive. But that's not what I remember about growing up. I remember watching Kennedy's funeral; I remember Eisenhower's funeral when Omar Bradley stood in front of his coffin and saluted. I remember the Civil Rights Movement; Martin Luther King; water cannons and dogs set on innocent Black marchers. And I remember watching the Vietnam War on television. I remember a Monk sitting in the middle of the street and setting himself on fire. I write about the hatred I witnessed. I remember every story my mother told me about growing up as a kid in Holland and the Germans invading. She would have been 100 this coming February. The lives we lived back then are the basis for the horror tales we live today.
Don't expect me to write anything modern.
I'm not stuck back there, but I don't want the world 'now', to forget what it was like back then. Sure, there was hatred and war and civil strife and political strife, unrest and uprisings -- life hasn't changed that much as far as hating each other goes. And because of that, there will always be stories. But we told the truth. We didn't hold back because it was going to hurt your feelings. We were a generation that was raised by "The Greatest Generation." They used to name Generational Epochs with titles. The Lost Generation; The Greatest Generation; The Silent Generation; the Baby Boom Generation; Generation X.
The Greatest Generation survived the Great Depression and fought in the Second World War, and Korea. They had honour and believed in Causes with a capital C. They went to the moon. They were born between 1901-1927. They were my parents' generation.
What do the people today, of the later generations, think of the older generations? Generation X; Millennials; Generation Z; and now the Alphas? These are the ones denying the past my parent's generation fought and died for. They believe the Holocaust was a myth? They deny the very history I witnessed. The generations of today will cancel someone because he says something offensive, or sexist. The world today is all censorship. They tell you what books you can or can not read; what you can and can not say. That history didn't happen the way we say it did. They give us shows like "Bridgerton", and "Dodger," with a racially diverse cast, not because that's how it was, but because someone said it should be fair representation.
This was a great comment. The world as it was back then as opposed to the world today as we pretend it is.
There's no question that we are materially better off now, but are we better off in other aspects of our lives? In some aspects yes, in some no. I was born in 1962. My parents were the silent generation, born in 1937 and 1938.
One genre of horror that seems to have recently been popular is competition run amok. I'm thinking of Squid Game (I didn't like it; I only watched one episode) and The Hunger Games.
I think today's version of edgy literature might be bad people getting away with whatever bad deeds they do. And I don't mean criminal behavior; I mean entitled, obnoxious behavior.
Wealthy, mean people seem like they always have to get their comeuppance. But what if they didn't? Would that be a particular kind of edgy horror?
Going back to old horror movies, one of the things that made Rosemary's Baby such a scary, unsettling movie is that in the end the devil and the coven win.
I think the competition games like Squid Game emerged from Asia as those types of game shows are still very popular. Their variety in format allows a horror director to choose different methods of challenge. This format has been embraced in the West as many Millennials are finding the “rat race” of careers with their indirect backstabbing very dissatisfying and wish they could engage in some more overt aggressive competition. Likewise they also might be yearning for some truly do or die scenarios as daily corporate life is pretty dull.
I have never watched Squid Games, but I think I can understand aspects that make it what it is.
And I think you’re right about bad people getting away with everything. There’s a lot of anger about that in society. The wealthy can do whatever they want. There’s certainly an opportunity for good horror there.
Shaina, I like this question, and I feel a bunch of competing responses - going back in time to the ‘70s reminds me of all the disruption and sense of dwindling resources we’re grappling with now - and I’m not sure horror or any other genre has gotten safer - watching Mike Flanagan’s “Midnight Mass” on Netflix gave me every bit the frisson of reading Stephen King wayback - and it does not provide easy answers regarding morality or religion.
If there’s anything new about horror or dystopian fantasy today, I’d say it might be existential uncertainty - and, perhaps, the fact that we all harbor seeds of the demon within us. I think of R.F. Kuang’s “Poppy Wars” trilogy, which goes very dark places.
I definitely relate to the competing responses, and I think you’re right to bring up Midnight Mass. That was an incredible and daring show. Mike Flanagan is a master.
I like that you point out the existential uncertainty. That’s definitely something all of us feel right now. Maybe there’s something quieter about that type of fear. It’s not as flashy in a way, so when it’s written about it’s not as in your face as the pea soup in The Exorcist. You’ve given me a lot to think about. Thanks for the thoughts.
If I offer a critique or question, due to my hyper-religious upbringing and compulsion I do try to ask myself in what ways am I similar or exactly like the thing about which I am drawing negative conclusions. The questions I am afraid to ask society with my art are in regards to a fixation on identity as being the supremely important thing that makes the world matter and the fastidious echo chambers that divide people from each other due to the perceived inability to respectfully engage in meaningful dialogue, or safely disagree without potentially losing something, tangible or intangible.
Thank you for asking! I am so curious to know what your interpretation of the film Saltburn is, because I feel like surely I must be missing the point and even though this is the first post I read of yours, you disseminate things in a way that's genuinely interesting and helpful. Subscribing <3
Thank you Grace for such a vulnerable, in-depth comment. I have a very similar process for asking questions about the world. I had a hyper religious young adulthood (by my choosing) and feel that mirror acutely. I often see the same darkness in me that I observe in the world, even if it’s just a shadow in the corner for now.
Thank you, likewise! Reminds me of that shadow self and shadow work to integrate the deepest fears and what we despise the most, what a powerful concept. Looking forward to reading and discussing more <3
I grew up in NYC in the early 80s when they were overhauling the culture that had taken root. Time Square is a much safer, albeit commercialized, place today, as you said. And it’s been that way for several decades now. I visit family there every few years and my mom always gets nervous. I have to remind her that we lived there when it was a war zone. 😂
To all the awesome movies mentioned, I'm adding Alien, Suspiria, and Deliverance, even though that last isn't marketed as horror.
I think its a matter of perspective and time. With 70s movies and 70s horror, we remember the pinnacle films, and forgot about the mountain of 70s stinkers they sat at the top of. Just like any age.
If there's one big change, I'd say that successful modern horror focuses on people as monster, or 'psychological horror' instead of the slashers and creatures we've seen in the past.
Horror is often a mirror for us to observe. When I was eleven and saw The Exorcist, it truly scared me because I grew up Catholic. Now, it would be much harder for me to be as scared because I don’t believe in the devil. But there are still parts of my reptilian brain and subconscious that will warn me not to play Ouija board, to have some caution. I may not believe in an actual devil, but humans can still be killers. Humans can let ignorance and fear (often caused by trauma) enter their minds, which could lead to doing something terrible. And that’s scary.
I like your analysis at the end in which you argue that the movies and stories are giving seemingly one last warning to Americans: “Are you sure you want to give up your morality, religion and beliefs?” If so, then what will protect you from the monsters? It reminds me of Father Callahan from Stephen King’s “Salem Lot” who finds himself wondering whether he really should believe or not right as the devil personified is in the room with him. I believe modern horror or thrillers still touch on our current social anxieties. I’m thinking of the unsettling scenes of Joker that speak to the mainstream news fear of “incel” rage or sexual predators in the show “You” about a stalker. The most unsettling horror movie I saw recently was “It Follows,” which is a clear allegory of the AIDS and STD epidemic. You might like to see that one, even though it is more unnerving than anything else.
It Follows was recently recommended to me. I’m definitely going to watch it. Joker was an amazing movie to me, probably for the exact reasons you gave. It plays to that societal fear we have.
Where I live, McDonald's had sponsored a little roundabout park for Christmas 2022, and you could only access the park by walking underneath its arches. It felt so wrong I always walked on the grass around it, never underneath it.
On the one hand, we live in a world that's so dominated by companies they get away with things like this. It's often grotesque. On the other hand, we seem to be becoming increasingly puritanical, but only on a surface level, more concerned about how moral we appear than about how moral we actually are.
And, to me, that's quite fertile soil for horror. But you may have to self-publish it, haha.
This is a big part of why I use a pseudonym. I'm not necessarily trying to be edgy and offensive, but I want the freedom to offend without it adversely affecting my personal life.
It's funny that you bring up horror being a moralistic genre, because that's exactly the issue I have with a lot of the horror that's come out in the past 5-10 years. I'd argue that good horror isn't just about punishing transgressions on a 1:1 basis. Horror is built on surprise, and there's no surprise whatsoever in watching a cartoonishly evil character get punished.
Excellent take Shaina! It may be impossible to compare the situation from those “old” days with where we’re at now. My earliest memories are of the late 70’s and early 80’s. There was certainly plenty of “grit” to go around. I think probably, it does make for better art, but I’m glad my own kids don’t need to suffer for that art. If artists have more work to do these days, it’s worth the trade. You seem to be managing it well!
I like the old horror you mentioned the best, but that may be because I grew up on that horror but I like many of the horror films that has came out in the last few years. I think they are pushing boundaries too, but in a different way.
Based on the horror movies in the 70s and 80s, people had a fear of institutions and the mentally ill. A common theme I see in todays horror movies is trauma and a fear of growing old.
My new years was similar to yours, except for dropping the ball drop, I watched the music note drop. My cousin got to see it live. I was at home watching Nashville on TV, Lynyrd Skynyrd killed it on stage.
Horror of the '70s had moral lessons. "Don't pick on the girl who can start fires with her mind." "Don't make a deal with the devil, or he'll haunt your car." "Don't piss off the rabid dog." "Don't bury your cat in a haunted cemetery."
I've been wondering how much of the concept of "safe literature" that I've subconsciously accepted and has made its way into my work. As a result, as I work on new stories, I'm consciously looking for places to push boundaries.
If you, the man with one of Americas most banned books is doing this, we all should be.
I should wear a braclet that says, "What what Phillip Roth do?"
I don't try to disturb peoples' sensitive natures, but I can't write a story if I have to restrict myself to the norms and principles of today's ethics and morals. It just doesn't sit right with me. I write stories about the past and I don't hold back. I'm a white man who has lived a 'Tom Sawyer' life, as far as my wife is concerned. (Hers? Not so great.) I had no adversity of any sort. I grew up innocent and naive. But that's not what I remember about growing up. I remember watching Kennedy's funeral; I remember Eisenhower's funeral when Omar Bradley stood in front of his coffin and saluted. I remember the Civil Rights Movement; Martin Luther King; water cannons and dogs set on innocent Black marchers. And I remember watching the Vietnam War on television. I remember a Monk sitting in the middle of the street and setting himself on fire. I write about the hatred I witnessed. I remember every story my mother told me about growing up as a kid in Holland and the Germans invading. She would have been 100 this coming February. The lives we lived back then are the basis for the horror tales we live today.
Don't expect me to write anything modern.
I'm not stuck back there, but I don't want the world 'now', to forget what it was like back then. Sure, there was hatred and war and civil strife and political strife, unrest and uprisings -- life hasn't changed that much as far as hating each other goes. And because of that, there will always be stories. But we told the truth. We didn't hold back because it was going to hurt your feelings. We were a generation that was raised by "The Greatest Generation." They used to name Generational Epochs with titles. The Lost Generation; The Greatest Generation; The Silent Generation; the Baby Boom Generation; Generation X.
The Greatest Generation survived the Great Depression and fought in the Second World War, and Korea. They had honour and believed in Causes with a capital C. They went to the moon. They were born between 1901-1927. They were my parents' generation.
What do the people today, of the later generations, think of the older generations? Generation X; Millennials; Generation Z; and now the Alphas? These are the ones denying the past my parent's generation fought and died for. They believe the Holocaust was a myth? They deny the very history I witnessed. The generations of today will cancel someone because he says something offensive, or sexist. The world today is all censorship. They tell you what books you can or can not read; what you can and can not say. That history didn't happen the way we say it did. They give us shows like "Bridgerton", and "Dodger," with a racially diverse cast, not because that's how it was, but because someone said it should be fair representation.
I'll keep writing what I like.
This was a great comment. The world as it was back then as opposed to the world today as we pretend it is.
There's no question that we are materially better off now, but are we better off in other aspects of our lives? In some aspects yes, in some no. I was born in 1962. My parents were the silent generation, born in 1937 and 1938.
One genre of horror that seems to have recently been popular is competition run amok. I'm thinking of Squid Game (I didn't like it; I only watched one episode) and The Hunger Games.
I think today's version of edgy literature might be bad people getting away with whatever bad deeds they do. And I don't mean criminal behavior; I mean entitled, obnoxious behavior.
Wealthy, mean people seem like they always have to get their comeuppance. But what if they didn't? Would that be a particular kind of edgy horror?
Going back to old horror movies, one of the things that made Rosemary's Baby such a scary, unsettling movie is that in the end the devil and the coven win.
I think the competition games like Squid Game emerged from Asia as those types of game shows are still very popular. Their variety in format allows a horror director to choose different methods of challenge. This format has been embraced in the West as many Millennials are finding the “rat race” of careers with their indirect backstabbing very dissatisfying and wish they could engage in some more overt aggressive competition. Likewise they also might be yearning for some truly do or die scenarios as daily corporate life is pretty dull.
I have never watched Squid Games, but I think I can understand aspects that make it what it is.
And I think you’re right about bad people getting away with everything. There’s a lot of anger about that in society. The wealthy can do whatever they want. There’s certainly an opportunity for good horror there.
Shaina, I like this question, and I feel a bunch of competing responses - going back in time to the ‘70s reminds me of all the disruption and sense of dwindling resources we’re grappling with now - and I’m not sure horror or any other genre has gotten safer - watching Mike Flanagan’s “Midnight Mass” on Netflix gave me every bit the frisson of reading Stephen King wayback - and it does not provide easy answers regarding morality or religion.
If there’s anything new about horror or dystopian fantasy today, I’d say it might be existential uncertainty - and, perhaps, the fact that we all harbor seeds of the demon within us. I think of R.F. Kuang’s “Poppy Wars” trilogy, which goes very dark places.
I definitely relate to the competing responses, and I think you’re right to bring up Midnight Mass. That was an incredible and daring show. Mike Flanagan is a master.
I like that you point out the existential uncertainty. That’s definitely something all of us feel right now. Maybe there’s something quieter about that type of fear. It’s not as flashy in a way, so when it’s written about it’s not as in your face as the pea soup in The Exorcist. You’ve given me a lot to think about. Thanks for the thoughts.
If I offer a critique or question, due to my hyper-religious upbringing and compulsion I do try to ask myself in what ways am I similar or exactly like the thing about which I am drawing negative conclusions. The questions I am afraid to ask society with my art are in regards to a fixation on identity as being the supremely important thing that makes the world matter and the fastidious echo chambers that divide people from each other due to the perceived inability to respectfully engage in meaningful dialogue, or safely disagree without potentially losing something, tangible or intangible.
Thank you for asking! I am so curious to know what your interpretation of the film Saltburn is, because I feel like surely I must be missing the point and even though this is the first post I read of yours, you disseminate things in a way that's genuinely interesting and helpful. Subscribing <3
Thank you Grace for such a vulnerable, in-depth comment. I have a very similar process for asking questions about the world. I had a hyper religious young adulthood (by my choosing) and feel that mirror acutely. I often see the same darkness in me that I observe in the world, even if it’s just a shadow in the corner for now.
Really looking forward to more discussions!
Thank you, likewise! Reminds me of that shadow self and shadow work to integrate the deepest fears and what we despise the most, what a powerful concept. Looking forward to reading and discussing more <3
This is a beautiful piece. Thank you for giving me so much to think about!
Thanks for reading Elle ❤️
I grew up in NYC in the early 80s when they were overhauling the culture that had taken root. Time Square is a much safer, albeit commercialized, place today, as you said. And it’s been that way for several decades now. I visit family there every few years and my mom always gets nervous. I have to remind her that we lived there when it was a war zone. 😂
That wild L.C.! I can only imagine your poor mom’s anxiety at you going back.
To all the awesome movies mentioned, I'm adding Alien, Suspiria, and Deliverance, even though that last isn't marketed as horror.
I think its a matter of perspective and time. With 70s movies and 70s horror, we remember the pinnacle films, and forgot about the mountain of 70s stinkers they sat at the top of. Just like any age.
If there's one big change, I'd say that successful modern horror focuses on people as monster, or 'psychological horror' instead of the slashers and creatures we've seen in the past.
I like the way you said that. People as horror. That has been a very successful difference in modern horror stories. But I love a good monster!
Horror is often a mirror for us to observe. When I was eleven and saw The Exorcist, it truly scared me because I grew up Catholic. Now, it would be much harder for me to be as scared because I don’t believe in the devil. But there are still parts of my reptilian brain and subconscious that will warn me not to play Ouija board, to have some caution. I may not believe in an actual devil, but humans can still be killers. Humans can let ignorance and fear (often caused by trauma) enter their minds, which could lead to doing something terrible. And that’s scary.
Yeah. The fear reaction in humans and the damage it can do is fascinating to me.
I like your analysis at the end in which you argue that the movies and stories are giving seemingly one last warning to Americans: “Are you sure you want to give up your morality, religion and beliefs?” If so, then what will protect you from the monsters? It reminds me of Father Callahan from Stephen King’s “Salem Lot” who finds himself wondering whether he really should believe or not right as the devil personified is in the room with him. I believe modern horror or thrillers still touch on our current social anxieties. I’m thinking of the unsettling scenes of Joker that speak to the mainstream news fear of “incel” rage or sexual predators in the show “You” about a stalker. The most unsettling horror movie I saw recently was “It Follows,” which is a clear allegory of the AIDS and STD epidemic. You might like to see that one, even though it is more unnerving than anything else.
It Follows was recently recommended to me. I’m definitely going to watch it. Joker was an amazing movie to me, probably for the exact reasons you gave. It plays to that societal fear we have.
Where I live, McDonald's had sponsored a little roundabout park for Christmas 2022, and you could only access the park by walking underneath its arches. It felt so wrong I always walked on the grass around it, never underneath it.
On the one hand, we live in a world that's so dominated by companies they get away with things like this. It's often grotesque. On the other hand, we seem to be becoming increasingly puritanical, but only on a surface level, more concerned about how moral we appear than about how moral we actually are.
And, to me, that's quite fertile soil for horror. But you may have to self-publish it, haha.
That is absolutely fertile soil for horror. McDonald’s arches!!! I hate it so much.
This is a big part of why I use a pseudonym. I'm not necessarily trying to be edgy and offensive, but I want the freedom to offend without it adversely affecting my personal life.
It's funny that you bring up horror being a moralistic genre, because that's exactly the issue I have with a lot of the horror that's come out in the past 5-10 years. I'd argue that good horror isn't just about punishing transgressions on a 1:1 basis. Horror is built on surprise, and there's no surprise whatsoever in watching a cartoonishly evil character get punished.
Very true! There’s the trope, and then the time to blow the trope away
Excellent take Shaina! It may be impossible to compare the situation from those “old” days with where we’re at now. My earliest memories are of the late 70’s and early 80’s. There was certainly plenty of “grit” to go around. I think probably, it does make for better art, but I’m glad my own kids don’t need to suffer for that art. If artists have more work to do these days, it’s worth the trade. You seem to be managing it well!
I’m with you. The best art usually comes from suffering. But I’m not voting for more of it!
I like the old horror you mentioned the best, but that may be because I grew up on that horror but I like many of the horror films that has came out in the last few years. I think they are pushing boundaries too, but in a different way.
Based on the horror movies in the 70s and 80s, people had a fear of institutions and the mentally ill. A common theme I see in todays horror movies is trauma and a fear of growing old.
My new years was similar to yours, except for dropping the ball drop, I watched the music note drop. My cousin got to see it live. I was at home watching Nashville on TV, Lynyrd Skynyrd killed it on stage.
Kevin I’m so glad you chimed in on this! A fear of growing old...I haven’t seen any on that. Do you have recommendations?
I haven’t read any stories but movies that come to mind is Pearl, X, Old People and The Manor.
Horror of the '70s had moral lessons. "Don't pick on the girl who can start fires with her mind." "Don't make a deal with the devil, or he'll haunt your car." "Don't piss off the rabid dog." "Don't bury your cat in a haunted cemetery."
Those were the days!