Really interesting discussion here. I don't disagree about the need to question authority and the potential for abuse in institutions. But I do have some mixed feelings, as I feel like the pendulum has swung so far in the direction of "institutions are always evil" and "mental illness is just a quirky identity, not an affliction" (echoed in that "mental illness is power" quote) that few people are willing to look the problem of serious mental illness in the face and do anything concrete about it. And sometimes that means making hard choices on behalf of people who are a danger to themselves and others. No, it's not sexy or fun, but it's necessary.
Your quotation about brushing teeth struck me especially. My grandmother was a nurse on the night shift at a mental hospital before they all closed down. I recall hearing a story about a severely disturbed woman who used her toothbrush to gouge out her own eye. Even under careful supervision, crazy shit happens with crazy people. Rules often seem arbitrary or punitive, but there may be an underlying logic to them that the outside observer just isn't aware of. Rebellion, however well-intentioned, is poison if it doesn't first understand its repercussions.
I hear you. I myself am a rule follower by nature. And it’s an interesting balance to be sure. Society has rules and form and there’s a reason for that. Institutions have their place. Look at what has happened to so many mentally ill people now that we don’t have the same funding for mental healthcare. So many are homeless. But I guess I’m driving at the need for someone like McMurphy in the world because we have people like Nurse Ratched. I have some belief in a cosmic ordering of some kind. That the people who buck the rules bring a balance to the tyrants if that makes sense. Sort of the same thinking behind American democracy. That government and really all institutions should be built to serve humans, not the other way around.
In the book Nurse Ratched is an abusive tyrant, but a calculating one. She weaponizes peoples mental illness against them under the guise of helping them. There are other nurses on other wards who despise her methods. And I won’t ruin the ending for you, but she’s actually an evil character.
In your toothbrush example, serving that person is not allowing her to gouge her eyes out. In the book, there’s no reason for the rule. It’s there for arbitrary control. I get what you’re saying though. I just think it’s too easy for people to be abused when they’re vulnerable. Or to view people as just mentally ill instead of a whole human being.
Talk about a conversation starter, your review and commentary really caused my mind to race. Your closing comments cover the dichotomy well, but the devil is in the details.
This is an extreme example and hard to romanticize by most of us, but would Trump fit the McMurphy role in inspiring others to rebel against 'convention,' as it were?
Wow. He may very well be. The difference that I see is McMurphy actually cares about the guys on the ward. He gives his life for them. The same can’t be said for Trump. But maybe that’s because McMurphy didn’t have power. Maybe if he did he would be very similar…
The complication comes fm the perspectives of individual situational awareness. An example is the historical interpretations of resistance to the edicts of King George's expectations of taxation and general obeisance of the colonizers; the methods used by early settlers in that resistance. Of course, our descendants who gained a country praised the methods, even though they could be interpreted as less honorable responses.
The Continental Army utilized guerrilla warfare against the British. Raids, ambushes, and spreading disinformation were just some of the ways Americans could surprise larger British forces.
As a benefitting American, I would be reticent to disparage such techniques, but it cuts both ways: my older, educated British-dwelling citizen acquaintances are more reserved as far as their take on our written history glorifying such methods.
Consider the attitudes that still reveal themselves as far as the methods and purpose that brought about the Civil War. Or, The War of Northern Aggression, as it is often referred to by many Southerners. There is plenty of romanticization of the 'Rebels' as part of the Confederate Army to preserve their way of life. They even have a "Rebel Yell"--with a smile on your face ask ur Southern acquaintances to demonstrate it.
Many Southerners still recount the historical lore of plantation owners' nobility in regard to their owned slaves. So, yeah, Shaina, a diverse grouping of people can and will define their own heroes, their own "rebels," based on whatever influences brought them to that point.
It is also clearly evident in followers of different gods and organized religions. People that have the same values and prejudices find each other and organize around what works for them:
"Gods always behave like the people that made them." ~Zora Neale Hurston
You are a discussion leader. U present such topics that can be considered and used in understanding the fractionated attitudes we are now grappling with. We love that you have this talent as a writer.
"a diverse grouping of people can and will define their own heroes, their own "rebels," based on whatever influences brought them to that point"
So very true. Of course it's easier for me to consider when it's regarding something removed from my own experience. When it's unemotional. I find it hard to understand what drives the divides in Israel for example, or what caused the Rwandan genocide. I don't have strong emotions about land in Jerusalem. I can't understand how neighbors would slaughter one another over terms like Tutsi and Hutu. But talk about American issues and man, there's a lot of emotion behind that, especially after Trump.
When I can distance myself, I really can see it from another perspective. And I can even see it as beneficial, yes, even someone like Trump, in this sense: in my opinion, what his election and the attitudes left and right in this country mean is that the current "establishment" is not serving the needs of the people. They aren't listening. They don't share our concerns, our obstacles, our day to day lives. They are removed from it. Election after election, and seemingly nothing changes. It doesn't matter if it's a Democrat or Republican. So people turn populist (Sanders and Trump). They look for an answer outside of what's being offered. "Anything has to be better than this."
Maybe there's a real need in this country that is not being answered by status quo politicians. And maybe the rebellion that we see, the distrust in the mainstream, is warranted in the sense that something is not being done that needs to be done. (And that something includes education in my opinion). But there is a real desperation in people right now for change in a positive direction. The problem with that desperation is the temptation to look for a Messiah. One guy to solve all the problems. And that never seems to land anywhere good.
To add a sharper point to my mention of the War of Northern Aggression and the feelings that still prevail, I just read this article in WaPo about the volatile issues around removing Confederate Hero Statues. This subject may well inflame some list members here to speak up. You're not wrong in your mind to self-identify as "Confederate heritage defenders," and I'd like to hear your validations for keeping those statues of Southern Confederate Heros and their symbolism.
As I wrote, in almost all cases people will form their unique ideas as to their heroes and who to rebel against the will of the majority.
White-owned construction companies will not remove the Confederate statues, so a Black man steps up.
A snip as an aside: John Mitchell Jr., the civil rights pioneer who wrote about the resilience of the Black person in society. “The Negro … put up the Lee monument,” Mitchell wrote, “and should the time come, will be there to take it down.”
So here's the story of Devin Henry for you to consider.
I'm overjoyed that you've read One Flew for the first time and I loved your analysis. As you might guess, Chief Bromden is huge in my life and writing. In many ways, my character Thomas Builds-the-Fire is influenced by Chief Broom. And, of course, now that I'm fully medicated and in intensive therapy for my bipolar disorder, I relate to the big ol' crazy Indian more than ever. I've had two stays in residential mental healthcare facilities and one of them was a truly terrible, damaging, and expensive place. I'll be writing about it in my next memoir.
I have family members and close friends who have been in mental healthcare facilities, a few times against their will. The trauma that resulted was significant. The dehumanization they felt was unreal. I'm sorry you experienced it. I love Thomas Builds-the-Fire...I first watched Smoke Signals when I was 16. My stepmom was Indian, and she loved that movie so much. We died laughing. We cried. My life growing up was so chaotic, and he helped me see that you could find beauty in all of it. That actually, much of it was beautiful. Thank you for him.
Really interesting discussion here. I don't disagree about the need to question authority and the potential for abuse in institutions. But I do have some mixed feelings, as I feel like the pendulum has swung so far in the direction of "institutions are always evil" and "mental illness is just a quirky identity, not an affliction" (echoed in that "mental illness is power" quote) that few people are willing to look the problem of serious mental illness in the face and do anything concrete about it. And sometimes that means making hard choices on behalf of people who are a danger to themselves and others. No, it's not sexy or fun, but it's necessary.
Your quotation about brushing teeth struck me especially. My grandmother was a nurse on the night shift at a mental hospital before they all closed down. I recall hearing a story about a severely disturbed woman who used her toothbrush to gouge out her own eye. Even under careful supervision, crazy shit happens with crazy people. Rules often seem arbitrary or punitive, but there may be an underlying logic to them that the outside observer just isn't aware of. Rebellion, however well-intentioned, is poison if it doesn't first understand its repercussions.
I hear you. I myself am a rule follower by nature. And it’s an interesting balance to be sure. Society has rules and form and there’s a reason for that. Institutions have their place. Look at what has happened to so many mentally ill people now that we don’t have the same funding for mental healthcare. So many are homeless. But I guess I’m driving at the need for someone like McMurphy in the world because we have people like Nurse Ratched. I have some belief in a cosmic ordering of some kind. That the people who buck the rules bring a balance to the tyrants if that makes sense. Sort of the same thinking behind American democracy. That government and really all institutions should be built to serve humans, not the other way around.
In the book Nurse Ratched is an abusive tyrant, but a calculating one. She weaponizes peoples mental illness against them under the guise of helping them. There are other nurses on other wards who despise her methods. And I won’t ruin the ending for you, but she’s actually an evil character.
In your toothbrush example, serving that person is not allowing her to gouge her eyes out. In the book, there’s no reason for the rule. It’s there for arbitrary control. I get what you’re saying though. I just think it’s too easy for people to be abused when they’re vulnerable. Or to view people as just mentally ill instead of a whole human being.
Well said. I agree with almost everything you've said. :-)
Talk about a conversation starter, your review and commentary really caused my mind to race. Your closing comments cover the dichotomy well, but the devil is in the details.
This is an extreme example and hard to romanticize by most of us, but would Trump fit the McMurphy role in inspiring others to rebel against 'convention,' as it were?
Wow. He may very well be. The difference that I see is McMurphy actually cares about the guys on the ward. He gives his life for them. The same can’t be said for Trump. But maybe that’s because McMurphy didn’t have power. Maybe if he did he would be very similar…
The complication comes fm the perspectives of individual situational awareness. An example is the historical interpretations of resistance to the edicts of King George's expectations of taxation and general obeisance of the colonizers; the methods used by early settlers in that resistance. Of course, our descendants who gained a country praised the methods, even though they could be interpreted as less honorable responses.
The Continental Army utilized guerrilla warfare against the British. Raids, ambushes, and spreading disinformation were just some of the ways Americans could surprise larger British forces.
As a benefitting American, I would be reticent to disparage such techniques, but it cuts both ways: my older, educated British-dwelling citizen acquaintances are more reserved as far as their take on our written history glorifying such methods.
Consider the attitudes that still reveal themselves as far as the methods and purpose that brought about the Civil War. Or, The War of Northern Aggression, as it is often referred to by many Southerners. There is plenty of romanticization of the 'Rebels' as part of the Confederate Army to preserve their way of life. They even have a "Rebel Yell"--with a smile on your face ask ur Southern acquaintances to demonstrate it.
Many Southerners still recount the historical lore of plantation owners' nobility in regard to their owned slaves. So, yeah, Shaina, a diverse grouping of people can and will define their own heroes, their own "rebels," based on whatever influences brought them to that point.
It is also clearly evident in followers of different gods and organized religions. People that have the same values and prejudices find each other and organize around what works for them:
"Gods always behave like the people that made them." ~Zora Neale Hurston
You are a discussion leader. U present such topics that can be considered and used in understanding the fractionated attitudes we are now grappling with. We love that you have this talent as a writer.
"a diverse grouping of people can and will define their own heroes, their own "rebels," based on whatever influences brought them to that point"
So very true. Of course it's easier for me to consider when it's regarding something removed from my own experience. When it's unemotional. I find it hard to understand what drives the divides in Israel for example, or what caused the Rwandan genocide. I don't have strong emotions about land in Jerusalem. I can't understand how neighbors would slaughter one another over terms like Tutsi and Hutu. But talk about American issues and man, there's a lot of emotion behind that, especially after Trump.
When I can distance myself, I really can see it from another perspective. And I can even see it as beneficial, yes, even someone like Trump, in this sense: in my opinion, what his election and the attitudes left and right in this country mean is that the current "establishment" is not serving the needs of the people. They aren't listening. They don't share our concerns, our obstacles, our day to day lives. They are removed from it. Election after election, and seemingly nothing changes. It doesn't matter if it's a Democrat or Republican. So people turn populist (Sanders and Trump). They look for an answer outside of what's being offered. "Anything has to be better than this."
Maybe there's a real need in this country that is not being answered by status quo politicians. And maybe the rebellion that we see, the distrust in the mainstream, is warranted in the sense that something is not being done that needs to be done. (And that something includes education in my opinion). But there is a real desperation in people right now for change in a positive direction. The problem with that desperation is the temptation to look for a Messiah. One guy to solve all the problems. And that never seems to land anywhere good.
To add a sharper point to my mention of the War of Northern Aggression and the feelings that still prevail, I just read this article in WaPo about the volatile issues around removing Confederate Hero Statues. This subject may well inflame some list members here to speak up. You're not wrong in your mind to self-identify as "Confederate heritage defenders," and I'd like to hear your validations for keeping those statues of Southern Confederate Heros and their symbolism.
As I wrote, in almost all cases people will form their unique ideas as to their heroes and who to rebel against the will of the majority.
White-owned construction companies will not remove the Confederate statues, so a Black man steps up.
A snip as an aside: John Mitchell Jr., the civil rights pioneer who wrote about the resilience of the Black person in society. “The Negro … put up the Lee monument,” Mitchell wrote, “and should the time come, will be there to take it down.”
So here's the story of Devin Henry for you to consider.
https://tinyurl.com/5nkfkpke
I'm overjoyed that you've read One Flew for the first time and I loved your analysis. As you might guess, Chief Bromden is huge in my life and writing. In many ways, my character Thomas Builds-the-Fire is influenced by Chief Broom. And, of course, now that I'm fully medicated and in intensive therapy for my bipolar disorder, I relate to the big ol' crazy Indian more than ever. I've had two stays in residential mental healthcare facilities and one of them was a truly terrible, damaging, and expensive place. I'll be writing about it in my next memoir.
I have family members and close friends who have been in mental healthcare facilities, a few times against their will. The trauma that resulted was significant. The dehumanization they felt was unreal. I'm sorry you experienced it. I love Thomas Builds-the-Fire...I first watched Smoke Signals when I was 16. My stepmom was Indian, and she loved that movie so much. We died laughing. We cried. My life growing up was so chaotic, and he helped me see that you could find beauty in all of it. That actually, much of it was beautiful. Thank you for him.